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	<title>Comments for Lifted Veil</title>
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	<link>http://liftedveil.org</link>
	<description>Musings of an Incurable Lover of Jesus Christ</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 21:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>Comment on With God on Our Side by Shane Becker</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/with-god-on-our-side/#comment-1792</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/?p=218#comment-1792</guid>
		<description>I agree the issues are complex and I'm no political expert. 

Although I do believe those statistics are correct and that today's refuge camps are a direct result of Israeli victories and expansion in the region.  

Some items worth considering are:

- The reality of the Forgotten Christians: http://www.amconmag.com/article/2004/may/24/00013/
Gaza strip refuge maps (old - 2003 data - situation worsened since.): http://www.withgodonourside.com/maps/Refugees.pdf

- The bad theology which fuels a mis-focus:  http://www.withgodonourside.com/zionism.htm
by placing the Church's focus on to the kingdoms of this world rather than the kingdom of heaven which is "not of this world" (i.e. not of this age). It is wrong for the church to have a focus which puts the church's energy and money into the expansion Israel rather than the expansion of the gospel and support for our brothers and sisters in Christ and support of the poor and needy victims of this situation (on both sides). 

- The History of the Region:  http://www.withgodonourside.com/history.htm
There was a majority Arab population and minority Jewish communities living in the land of Palestine before 1948. "The UN Partition plan was formulated which was to give 55% of mandate Palestine to the Jews, and 45% to the Arabs." - even through this was significantly unfair compared to the population balance. "After the 1948 war, Israel captured and retained over 77% of mandate Palestine while Jordan controlled the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Egypt took Gaza." "At the end of the war on June 10, 1967, Israel had captured Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt, the West Bank including East Jerusalem from Jordan and the Golan from Syria. Israel annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem but kept the West Bank and Gaza Strip under military occupation. In 1979, in a peace treaty with the Egyptians, Israel retuned the Sinai back to Egypt."

 - The UN Resolutions and the Geneva Convention violations of Israel: http://www.withgodonourside.com/resolutions.htm

 - The Separation Barrier: http://www.withgodonourside.com/barrier.htm
 which in practice separates thousands of Palestinians from their livelihood.   

 - The reality of the Settlements: http://www.withgodonourside.com/settlements.htm
 which represents the reality of human rights violations and rather than being condemned by the church is, in many cases, actually supported (and believed to be Biblical). 


What concerns me in light of the work of Christ and the teaching of the new testament is the following:

 - The Church focusing on solutions that favor one nation over another rather than recognition that the Church is to be about the gospel and proclaim it alone as the means of bringing true peace. 

 - The need for a scriptural theology which brings the perspective of the church towards seeing both Jews and Palestinians as equally in need of Christ. 

 - A scriptural theology which brings the focus of Christians on the Kingdom which is "not of this world" instead of focusing on the international policy of this world.

 - A biblical understanding which recognises the primacy of the Church as God's one people which supersedes any former national status Israel had. 

 - Christians standing up for truth and human rights equally and fairly.  Christians seeking to do good to all - especially the household of faith.  The bias of the Christian church towards turning a blind eye to Israeli human rights violations on Theological or Ideological grounds is shameful.  Especially when their have been clear UN Resolutions and Geneva convention violations by Israel.

". . . I think that Israel is a far smaller offender in such . . . I think it is wise to support Israel and wise to oppose Arab expansion as a matter of international policy. . ."

I disagree.  We are to be in the world but not of it.  Christians are to support the truth. Christians are to support their brothers and sisters in Christ and be a voice for them when they suffer under both the human rights violations of the Israelis and Palestinians.  In that area it is Israel that has expanded their borders since they were established in 1948 not the other way around. 

Yes, the issues are complex.  But it is wiser for Christians to support the Church and Truth and not one side or the other.  Only the gospel will bring any real or lasting peace to the area.  This should be the message and focus of the church with respect for the region and not 'Give Israel their land'. 

Peace, for all,
Shane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree the issues are complex and I&#8217;m no political expert. </p>
<p>Although I do believe those statistics are correct and that today&#8217;s refuge camps are a direct result of Israeli victories and expansion in the region.  </p>
<p>Some items worth considering are:</p>
<p>- The reality of the Forgotten Christians: <a href="http://www.amconmag.com/article/2004/may/24/00013/" rel="nofollow">http://www.amconmag.com/article/2004/may/24/00013/</a><br />
Gaza strip refuge maps (old - 2003 data - situation worsened since.): <a href="http://www.withgodonourside.com/maps/Refugees.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.withgodonourside.com/maps/Refugees.pdf</a></p>
<p>- The bad theology which fuels a mis-focus:  <a href="http://www.withgodonourside.com/zionism.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.withgodonourside.com/zionism.htm</a><br />
by placing the Church&#8217;s focus on to the kingdoms of this world rather than the kingdom of heaven which is &#8220;not of this world&#8221; (i.e. not of this age). It is wrong for the church to have a focus which puts the church&#8217;s energy and money into the expansion Israel rather than the expansion of the gospel and support for our brothers and sisters in Christ and support of the poor and needy victims of this situation (on both sides). </p>
<p>- The History of the Region:  <a href="http://www.withgodonourside.com/history.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.withgodonourside.com/history.htm</a><br />
There was a majority Arab population and minority Jewish communities living in the land of Palestine before 1948. &#8220;The UN Partition plan was formulated which was to give 55% of mandate Palestine to the Jews, and 45% to the Arabs.&#8221; - even through this was significantly unfair compared to the population balance. &#8220;After the 1948 war, Israel captured and retained over 77% of mandate Palestine while Jordan controlled the West Bank and East Jerusalem and Egypt took Gaza.&#8221; &#8220;At the end of the war on June 10, 1967, Israel had captured Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt, the West Bank including East Jerusalem from Jordan and the Golan from Syria. Israel annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem but kept the West Bank and Gaza Strip under military occupation. In 1979, in a peace treaty with the Egyptians, Israel retuned the Sinai back to Egypt.&#8221;</p>
<p> - The UN Resolutions and the Geneva Convention violations of Israel: <a href="http://www.withgodonourside.com/resolutions.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.withgodonourside.com/resolutions.htm</a></p>
<p> - The Separation Barrier: <a href="http://www.withgodonourside.com/barrier.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.withgodonourside.com/barrier.htm</a><br />
 which in practice separates thousands of Palestinians from their livelihood.   </p>
<p> - The reality of the Settlements: <a href="http://www.withgodonourside.com/settlements.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.withgodonourside.com/settlements.htm</a><br />
 which represents the reality of human rights violations and rather than being condemned by the church is, in many cases, actually supported (and believed to be Biblical). </p>
<p>What concerns me in light of the work of Christ and the teaching of the new testament is the following:</p>
<p> - The Church focusing on solutions that favor one nation over another rather than recognition that the Church is to be about the gospel and proclaim it alone as the means of bringing true peace. </p>
<p> - The need for a scriptural theology which brings the perspective of the church towards seeing both Jews and Palestinians as equally in need of Christ. </p>
<p> - A scriptural theology which brings the focus of Christians on the Kingdom which is &#8220;not of this world&#8221; instead of focusing on the international policy of this world.</p>
<p> - A biblical understanding which recognises the primacy of the Church as God&#8217;s one people which supersedes any former national status Israel had. </p>
<p> - Christians standing up for truth and human rights equally and fairly.  Christians seeking to do good to all - especially the household of faith.  The bias of the Christian church towards turning a blind eye to Israeli human rights violations on Theological or Ideological grounds is shameful.  Especially when their have been clear UN Resolutions and Geneva convention violations by Israel.</p>
<p>&#8220;. . . I think that Israel is a far smaller offender in such . . . I think it is wise to support Israel and wise to oppose Arab expansion as a matter of international policy. . .&#8221;</p>
<p>I disagree.  We are to be in the world but not of it.  Christians are to support the truth. Christians are to support their brothers and sisters in Christ and be a voice for them when they suffer under both the human rights violations of the Israelis and Palestinians.  In that area it is Israel that has expanded their borders since they were established in 1948 not the other way around. </p>
<p>Yes, the issues are complex.  But it is wiser for Christians to support the Church and Truth and not one side or the other.  Only the gospel will bring any real or lasting peace to the area.  This should be the message and focus of the church with respect for the region and not &#8216;Give Israel their land&#8217;. </p>
<p>Peace, for all,<br />
Shane.</p>
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		<title>Comment on With God on Our Side by EBurkeDisciple</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/with-god-on-our-side/#comment-1790</link>
		<dc:creator>EBurkeDisciple</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/?p=218#comment-1790</guid>
		<description>I love your comments and your heart for the Lord.  I would check your facts just a bit.  There is so much back and forth on this point.  The number of "Palestinian Refugees" that resulted from the war is quite small compared to numbers today or quoted today for back then.  Obviously both sides engage in some propaganda but I think that Israel is a far smaller offender in such.  It is clear that Palestinians are a pawn in the hands of moslems to foster trouble for Israel.  "Palentinians" have poured into Israel and surrounds as a means of pressuring Israel and as a result of their being driven out of their Arab nation host.  The Arab nations could have given every Palestinian a home and funded a business for them at much less cost than what they have spent to eliminate Israel.

I am not a Christian Zionist - I am a strong ally of Israel.  I think it is wise to support Israel and wise to oppose Arab expansion as a matter of international policy.

I agree with you if our motive is to give them back land God has promised them we are on shaky ground but I think we should all realize that foreign aid sent to Israel is some of the best spent in terms of our national security and relief of human suffering.  Just like money we spend on Chinese made goods is going to bring us future trouble.  We must know the implications of what we do.

As Christians we want to seek peace.  As Christians we can wisely realize that peace cannot be brought to the holy-land by Israel abdicating land to any force dedicated to their destruction.  They have demonstrated an ability to run a government where all their citizens are represented equally under law - including Palestinians.  This is a notable accomplishment not seen in most of the world.  Let us look at the whole picture carefully.

For my reading the Palestinians have the burden of fostering peace and not war.  Not that Israel is innocent but peace has been available to the Palestinians on fairly good terms if they would pursue it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love your comments and your heart for the Lord.  I would check your facts just a bit.  There is so much back and forth on this point.  The number of &#8220;Palestinian Refugees&#8221; that resulted from the war is quite small compared to numbers today or quoted today for back then.  Obviously both sides engage in some propaganda but I think that Israel is a far smaller offender in such.  It is clear that Palestinians are a pawn in the hands of moslems to foster trouble for Israel.  &#8220;Palentinians&#8221; have poured into Israel and surrounds as a means of pressuring Israel and as a result of their being driven out of their Arab nation host.  The Arab nations could have given every Palestinian a home and funded a business for them at much less cost than what they have spent to eliminate Israel.</p>
<p>I am not a Christian Zionist - I am a strong ally of Israel.  I think it is wise to support Israel and wise to oppose Arab expansion as a matter of international policy.</p>
<p>I agree with you if our motive is to give them back land God has promised them we are on shaky ground but I think we should all realize that foreign aid sent to Israel is some of the best spent in terms of our national security and relief of human suffering.  Just like money we spend on Chinese made goods is going to bring us future trouble.  We must know the implications of what we do.</p>
<p>As Christians we want to seek peace.  As Christians we can wisely realize that peace cannot be brought to the holy-land by Israel abdicating land to any force dedicated to their destruction.  They have demonstrated an ability to run a government where all their citizens are represented equally under law - including Palestinians.  This is a notable accomplishment not seen in most of the world.  Let us look at the whole picture carefully.</p>
<p>For my reading the Palestinians have the burden of fostering peace and not war.  Not that Israel is innocent but peace has been available to the Palestinians on fairly good terms if they would pursue it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Gospel Sanctification 11 - Quotes by Murray Brett</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/gospel-sanctification-11-quotes/#comment-1788</link>
		<dc:creator>Murray Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Dec 2009 01:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/gospel-sanctification-11-quotes/#comment-1788</guid>
		<description>I've been looking for the source of the quote by Alexander Whyte on "sanctification by vinegar."  I first heard it about 12 years ago in Sinclair Ferguson's messages on "The Marrow Controversy." I read a fair amount of Whyte, but I've never been able to find the source of the quote.  I googled it a number of years ago and didn't turn up much.  But today I googled it and was led to your blog.  If you have the resource, would you please share the bibliographical information with me?

Sincerely,

Murray</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been looking for the source of the quote by Alexander Whyte on &#8220;sanctification by vinegar.&#8221;  I first heard it about 12 years ago in Sinclair Ferguson&#8217;s messages on &#8220;The Marrow Controversy.&#8221; I read a fair amount of Whyte, but I&#8217;ve never been able to find the source of the quote.  I googled it a number of years ago and didn&#8217;t turn up much.  But today I googled it and was led to your blog.  If you have the resource, would you please share the bibliographical information with me?</p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>Murray</p>
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		<title>Comment on New Focus Attacks &#8220;New Covenant Theology&#8221; by Shane Becker</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/new-focus-attacks-new-covenant-theology/#comment-1787</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/?p=198#comment-1787</guid>
		<description>Very true.
Thanks for stopping by. 
Grace,
Shane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true.<br />
Thanks for stopping by.<br />
Grace,<br />
Shane.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on New Focus Attacks &#8220;New Covenant Theology&#8221; by R.Rao</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/new-focus-attacks-new-covenant-theology/#comment-1786</link>
		<dc:creator>R.Rao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Dec 2009 04:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/?p=198#comment-1786</guid>
		<description>Ella's views on many a topic - not just NCT - leave something to be desired.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ella&#8217;s views on many a topic - not just NCT - leave something to be desired.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Sabbath(s) of Colosians 2:16 by Shane Becker by Shane Becker</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/sabbath_colossians_2_16_by_shane_becker/#comment-1785</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 05:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/blog/the-%e2%80%9csabbaths%e2%80%9d-of-colosians-216-by-shane-becker/#comment-1785</guid>
		<description>Diane, 
Thanks for visiting.  I'm saying that this verse sweeps the lot away as 'Shadows' - all Sabbath celebrations and days - including the weekly Sabbath.  They all stand or fall together and are treated that way throughout Scripture. 

Anthony, thanks for the encouragement.  I haven't written on Eph 2- maybe one day. 

kwolfe, 
The shadowy Sabbaths - including the Old Testament seventh day Sabbath - are shadows of Christ as the text says.  "which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" Col 2:17.

So let us rest in Christ as our true Sabbath!

Grace, 

Shane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diane,<br />
Thanks for visiting.  I&#8217;m saying that this verse sweeps the lot away as &#8216;Shadows&#8217; - all Sabbath celebrations and days - including the weekly Sabbath.  They all stand or fall together and are treated that way throughout Scripture. </p>
<p>Anthony, thanks for the encouragement.  I haven&#8217;t written on Eph 2- maybe one day. </p>
<p>kwolfe,<br />
The shadowy Sabbaths - including the Old Testament seventh day Sabbath - are shadows of Christ as the text says.  &#8220;which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ&#8221; Col 2:17.</p>
<p>So let us rest in Christ as our true Sabbath!</p>
<p>Grace, </p>
<p>Shane.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Gospel Sanctification 3 - Walter Marshall to My Rescue by David Charles</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/gospel-sanctification-3-walter-marshall-to-my-rescue/#comment-1784</link>
		<dc:creator>David Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:52:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/Content/gospel-sanctification-3-walter-marshall-to-my-rescue/#comment-1784</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the post.  Where can John Murray's quot be found?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the post.  Where can John Murray&#8217;s quot be found?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Aussie Books by Australians! New Covenant Media Books Available Now! &#124; New Covenant Theology</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/aussie-books/#comment-1783</link>
		<dc:creator>Australians! New Covenant Media Books Available Now! &#124; New Covenant Theology</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/?page_id=182#comment-1783</guid>
		<description>[...] See here for details or to place and order! [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] See here for details or to place and order! [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>Comment on Christ&#8217;s Glorious Covenant - Notes, Audio, Video by Lifted Veil &#187; Stuff I&#8217;ve Said</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/christs-glorious-covenants/#comment-1782</link>
		<dc:creator>Lifted Veil &#187; Stuff I&#8217;ve Said</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 01:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/christs-glorious-covenants/#comment-1782</guid>
		<description>[...] Notes / Overheads for Christ&#8217;s Glorious Covenant Series [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Notes / Overheads for Christ&#8217;s Glorious Covenant Series [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on 10 Career Metaphors Guaranteed to Destroy Your Church by Shane Becker</title>
		<link>http://liftedveil.org/10-career-metaphors-guaranteed-to-destroy-your-church/#comment-1781</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Becker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://liftedveil.org/?p=151#comment-1781</guid>
		<description>Nice to hear from you Joe. 

I'm still in the pre-cable days here : (</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice to hear from you Joe. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m still in the pre-cable days here : (</p>
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